DM41CX

[Duncan]

Hi All
Just to be controversial, do we need a new section for the new Swiss Micros DM41CX!!!!

[Duncan]

Obviously I meant DM41X!!

[Garth]

It seems like an awful lot of the discussion would be overlapping, otherwise it wouldn't be the DM41X, right?  But we do have a lot of hardware sections of the forum that would not apply, like about card readers, HPIL, bar code, cassette, modules, etc..  Myself, I got into the 41 for its ability, through HPIL, to control and take data from a lot of pieces of electronics test equipment on the workbench, and interface to them all at once.  You cannot do that with the DM-<anything>.  I have the HP82169A HPIL-to-IEEE488 interface converter, the FSI164A HPIL-to-RS232 interface converter (like, and mostly compatible with, the HP82164A, but with two RS-232 channels, and optionally up to eight, plus the option to run on battery power), and the HP82165A HPIL-to-parallel interface converter, and of course you can use them all at once, plus having a lot of pieces of equipment connected to the '169A all at once, plus printer, mass storage, whatever, on HPIL, up to 31 devices altogether at once.  So although the DM41X has a lot of advantages (including being in current production), this is not one of them.

[Duncan]

Hi Garth
Agree entirely! I have come from exactly the same engineering point. I too have a variety of interfaces including the GPIO and HPIB and PIL/IO interfaces this is what makes HP41/IL so fantastic. I am in the process of developing a whole range of hardware and software mechanisms that hopefully will be of interest to everyone in the forum. I have just taken delivery of a DM41X and I am slightly disappointed that no HP-IL is currently supported even though I pointed out the the very essence of HP41 is that it is a system and not just a calculator. I have so many fantastic ideas it may take a long time to realize them all but I will try to keep everyone updated through this forum. Long live HP41!!

[Garth]

That sounds great!  I look forward to your success.  And saying that "the the very essence of HP41 is that it is a system and not just a calculator" is right on the money.  I try to be accommodating of different people's interests and backgrounds, so I have to hold back when I want to say their idea of I/O (like only having it to connect to a printer or mass storage) is pretty anemic.  They're mostly accustomed to home- and office-type interfacing though, where it's mostly human-oriented.  I was very disappointed when HPIL was discontinued.  I think the idea should have been advanced and upgraded to higher speeds as technology advanced.

[Duncan]

Hi Garth
My ultimate dream is to re-establish HP-IL!!! I 'joke' with my friends I am working on an 11 bit internet!! they don't believe it!! If I have to personally fund production of a new HP-IL IC I will!! (dream). Thank you to everyone that has helped create the virtual IL world that has brought IL to the 'masses'. My plan is to enhance this capability and maintain it for the future if I can.
Regards
Duncan

[Duncan]

Hi Garth
Forgot to say I have also ripped out my ethernet cables in my house and replaced them with HP-IL cables, a proper network!!!!
Regards
Duncan

[Garth]

My ultimate dream is to re-establish HP-IL!!! I 'joke' with my friends I am working on an 11 bit internet!! they don't believe it!! If I have to personally fund production of a new HP-IL IC I will!! (dream). Thank you to everyone that has helped create the virtual IL world that has brought IL to the 'masses'. My plan is to enhance this capability and maintain it for the future if I can.

Compatibility with existing HPIL things would be nice, but maybe not absolutely necessary if you're going to make new accessories to go with it.  The ones to replace the HP82164A and HP82165A would be easiest, followed perhaps by mass storage, using SD cards in SPI mode.  Optoisolators would be smaller and cheaper than HPIL transformers.  More widely available connectors could be used.  It would be nice if one can make up his own cables on the workbench, something you definitely cannot do with USB.  In fact, Universal Serial Bus (USB) is quite a misnomer.  How can they call it "universal" when there are eleven mutually incompatible kinds of connectors?  And how can they call it a "bus" when normally one connector goes to only one device?  It is definitely not hobbyist-friendly.  The USB-2.0 spec is over 650 pages, and it precludes a hand-held device from being a controller.  You cannot do any USB troubleshooting, you cannot make up your own cables, and it has a short limit of only 5m.  RS-422 can do 10Mbps at 40 feet, and RS-485 can do 35Mbps at 33 feet, and both can go at least 90kbps (still a little faster than HPIL) at 3/4 mile.  These allow making your own cables, and you can use the same UARTs as RS-232 but with different line drivers and receivers.  At that point you probably wouldn't even need an FPGA, just a microcontroller, with built-in UARTs.  If cables were not limited to two conductors, you could forgo the UART and make it synchronous serial like SPI which would require three conductors minimum to go one direction per cable, and you might even get away with 2.5mm or 3.5mm phone plugs, small, inexpensive, widely available, and can be soldered by hand.  The biggest challenge in making an HP-41 module would probably be just the mechanical shell and connector for the top ports.  I don't know what it would entail for the DM41X.

[Garth]

Bump.  Any progress?  I know from personal experience that in these things, projects can be slow.  I myself have one that's on the back burner off and on for years.

[meindert@kuiprs.nl]

Well, I am working on the TULIP, which is already succesfull in emulating the HP-IL module, although using virtual devices on a host computer and USB (with a virtual serial port). There is a realistic possibility that a real HP-IL will become possible with the upcoming updated PILBox as a media converter. This is all work in progress.
Info about TULIP is on my github pages here: https://github.com/mjakuipers/TULIP-DevBoard

[Garth]

TULIP is indeed exciting, and I just watched (again) Sylvain Côté's HHC 2024 presentation on it.

There is a realistic possibility that a real HP-IL will become possible with the upcoming updated PILBox as a media converter.

I could be misunderstanding; but my impression is that PILBox requires the involvement of a PC, whereas I want a solution that does not depend on a PC.  Will this be possible?

[Garth]

whereas I want a solution that does not depend on a PC.  Will this be possible?

I should clarify.  I have two 41cx's, and one HP-IL module with the Extended I/O merged with it, so the two only take one port.  I bought it that way from EduCALC back in the day, and I never saw the two separately.  As long as nothing happens to it, I can keep using that, and I want to get the MAXX module when it's available.  I'm on several of these forums and sometimes tend to forget which one I'm on.  The SwissMicros forum is one of them.  SwissMicros' DM41X appeals to me, but so far there's no HP-IL there.  I'd like to take my 41cx to work; but although theft is pretty unlikely there, I'm still a bit nervous about taking it, also for reasons that anything else would happen to it, since these have been out of production for decades, unlike the SwissMicros unit which is in current production, and if something happens to it, I can still get another one.  I also have the 82169A, 82165A, and FSI164A (like the 82164A) interface converters, which are also unfortunately out of production, and if anything happens to these, I might never be able to replace them, hence my interest expressed a few posts further up.

[meindert@kuiprs.nl]

Garth wrote:
whereas I want a solution that does not depend on a PC. Will this be possible?

It is not proven or tested in practice but likely possible, depending on how the new PILBox works out. The TULIP would take the role of the PC using a UART and can potentially control the PILBox such that the IL side of it behaves like the real HP-IL loop.

[floppy_stuttgart]

Garth wrote:
whereas I want a solution that does not depend on a PC. Will this be possible?

It is not proven or tested in practice but likely possible, depending on how the new PILBox works out. The TULIP would take the role of the PC using a UART and can potentially control the PILBox such that the IL side of it behaves like the real HP-IL loop.

Is the PI2 with USB on it, a "PC"? (the image show a powerbank for the PI2)

[meindert@kuiprs.nl]

Is the PI2 with USB on it, a "PC"? (the image show a powerbank for the PI2)

Well, the Pi2 runs an instance of pyILPer I assume, so it has the role of a host computer, but a small one. And the TULIP is also more a computer than a peripheral.
But this solution is close. The original question is I think how to control HP-IL devices (real, not virtual) from an HP41 without HP-IL module, or from an emulated environment (like the DM41X). Forget HP-IL from the DM41X. I do not think there will be plans to update the firmware such that is can emulate virtual HP-IL (over USB).
With the PI2 solution, a second instance of the PILBox control software and a second PILBox controlling real HP-IL devices can be used to achieve this. I have not tested this myself so I do not have step by step instructions. You can also use one PILBox and control real devices from a PC with V41.