New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got questions

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New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got questions

Postby Jordan Orlando » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:40 am

I bought a "Quad Module" — 82170A — from eBay, for my newly-purchased 41C.

It turns out — in a “fairy tale” plot twist — I’d actually bought a W&W “CCD Advanced” module.

With the module inserted, the CAT 2 (or, “CAT ’ 2” with the telltale caret) function displays the following:

W&W CCD A
ARR FNS
HEX FNS
I/O FNS
ADV FNS
X F/M FNS

I was able to figure this out based entirely on help from this discussion board — in particular, kind responses from mike-stgt, rprosperi, and Garth, on this previous topic from last week, “Quad Memory module changes ‘CAT’ function:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=477

That discussion made clear how the newer, third-party modules were built into re-used shells, which is why my module has its “Clark Kent” 82170A “Quad Module” labeling.

Here’s my question:

Downloading the “HP-41 Archive” website contents, I found and browsed the manual for the original CCD module — which is very lucid and informative. However the “manual” for the CCD A is just a list of functions, some details flowcharts and some other arcane material (including software in barcode format). The table of “CCD Advanced Pac” functions doesn’t match the module “section headers” I list above.

Can anyone point me in the right direction, for more information and documentation of this module? (I have some rudimentary newbie questions, such as: in addition to the complex new functionality the module provides, does it also provide new memory registers, as it seems to? I can address register 64 and upward with the module installed — rather than getting “NONEXISTENT” as I do without the module — but I understand that I could be reading, not user-addressable memory (although I gingerly tried to store numbers into some of those higher registers and it worked without complaint).

Thanks in advance for any time and advice anyone here can provide — and, thanks to the people who helped me get this far in my investigation. As I said, I’m a newcomer to this amazing technology, and I’m actually more impressed with the aftermarket ingenuity than I am with Hewlett-Packard’s amazing, original 1979 innovations.

Thanks,
Jordan
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby mike-stgt » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:24 pm

Jordan Orlando wrote:I bought a "Quad Module" — 82170A — from eBay, for my newly-purchased 41C.
It turns out — in a “fairy tale” plot twist — I’d actually bought a W&W “CCD Advanced” module.
What is your evidence to have for sure the “CCD Advanced”? The 'A' in section header "W&W CCD A" just stands for revision A (to to distinguish it from "W&W CCD B").
Note: if you dig for ancient roman remnants and find no copper filaments does not mean they had wireless communication already.
Can anyone point me in the right direction, ...
Have a look on Warren's DVD, within directory ...\Modules-ROMs\CCD Module there is a CCD Module Manual.pdf, 355 pages. Now spot the difference to your module. Have fun.

M.
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby rprosperi » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:41 pm

As I suggested last week, it appears you have a module which contains both a Quad Mem Module and a CCD ROM, which is why you see both more registers and the new CAT-2 functions. Congratulations, it's a very rare module, and if you only paid what a Quad RAM module should cost, you got an extraordinarily great deal!!

The "CCD ROM" is the core module which contains the CAT-2 functions you can see listed. This module made by W&W in the 80's.

The "CCD Advanced" ROM is a collection of programs which utilize functions in the CCD ROM, assembled by Angel Martin about 10 years ago, based on routines written by users in the late 80's and published in various journals. This is indeed advanced, but does not help you to learn to use the CCD module itself, rather it builds new programs using that.

You want to use this manual, part of the HP-41.org collection:

HP41-DVD\Modules-ROMs\CCD Module\CCD Module Manual.pdf
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby Jordan Orlando » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:10 pm

mike-stgt wrote:
Jordan Orlando wrote:I bought a "Quad Module" — 82170A — from eBay, for my newly-purchased 41C.
It turns out — in a “fairy tale” plot twist — I’d actually bought a W&W “CCD Advanced” module.
What is your evidence to have for sure the “CCD Advanced”? The 'A' in section header "W&W CCD A" just stands for revision A (to to distinguish it from "W&W CCD B").
Note: if you dig for ancient roman remnants and find no copper filaments does not mean they had wireless communication already.
Can anyone point me in the right direction, ...
Have a look on Warren's DVD, within directory ...\Modules-ROMs\CCD Module there is a CCD Module Manual.pdf, 355 pages. Now spot the difference to your module. Have fun.

M.


I don't have any "evidence for sure" — I stated out exactly what I was going on, which was 1) the "A" in the catalog; 2) the fact that CAT 2 didn't match the listings that I saw in the manuals.

I also explained that I have both manuals from the downloaded DVD directory, and how I was trying to evince the correct information from those two .pdfs.

I'm new to all this, as I explained, and throughout I've been extremely polite and diffident and have repeatedly thanked those other posters who've been kind enough to reply and help, calling them out by name (including yourself). I don't understand why you're responding with this condescending, snotty, put-upon attitude just because I made a couple of misinterpretations. In fact, you did the same thing on this forum viewtopic.php?f=13&t=476&p=1464#p1464 when I was confused about the coding of programs on modules — you told me to "RTFM" and then it was Garth who was kind enough to explain the existence of MCode, which answered my entire question and which I had not yet come across (since HP doesn't document it — it's not in the "FM" — and you have to get pretty far into the weeds here before encountering it).
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby Jordan Orlando » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:14 am

rprosperi wrote:As I suggested last week, it appears you have a module which contains both a Quad Mem Module and a CCD ROM, which is why you see both more registers and the new CAT-2 functions. Congratulations, it's a very rare module, and if you only paid what a Quad RAM module should cost, you got an extraordinarily great deal!!

The "CCD ROM" is the core module which contains the CAT-2 functions you can see listed. This module made by W&W in the 80's.

The "CCD Advanced" ROM is a collection of programs which utilize functions in the CCD ROM, assembled by Angel Martin about 10 years ago, based on routines written by users in the late 80's and published in various journals. This is indeed advanced, but does not help you to learn to use the CCD module itself, rather it builds new programs using that.

You want to use this manual, part of the HP-41.org collection:

HP41-DVD\Modules-ROMs\CCD Module\CCD Module Manual.pdf


Fascinating, and thank you very much indeed for responding and for helping.

I haven't yet found the spot in the manual which lists the functions that CAT ' 2 brings up (again, ARR FNS, HEX FNS, I/O FNS, ADV FNS, X F/M FNS) but I'll keep looking.
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby mike-stgt » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:17 am

Jordan Orlando wrote:[...] the fact that CAT 2 didn't match the listings that I saw in the manuals.
{Warren's DVD}/Modules-ROMs/CCD Module/CCD Module Manual.pdf, Chapter 10, Function Index, p 10.03 ff (p. 340 of the PDF), here a screen shot of the table start:
p340.jpg
first few lines of function index table
I assume all 41's ROM collectors would be very interested in differences to your rare gem. So please let us know.
I'm new to all this, [...] I've been extremely polite [...] I don't understand why you're responding with this condescending, snotty, put-upon attitude just because I made a couple of misinterpretations.
Don't be sissy. Because you are new to the subject you have a lot of questions, that's normal. Most here are several decades ahed of you and investigated many hours in this marvellous HP41 to grasp all its aspects. No cause to feel humbled by short and precise answers. Your novice duty is to catch-up, take your time.

You regard yourself as extremely polite, wouldn't it be even more polite to follow my hints and investigate some time to read a bit? One of my first hint was to have a look for details about the 41's architecture in ZENROM users' manual. (Now I saw that some of the information is also given in the CCD manual.) In addition, could you please restrain from guesswork or 'misinterpretations' how you call it. Assume nothing, make sure. A complex digital system tends to look chaotic but it's a deterministic chaos, every state has its reason, sometimes hard to find.
In fact, [...] — you told me to "RTFM" [...] since HP doesn't document it — it's not in the "FM" — and you have to get pretty far into the weeds here before encountering it).
{Warren's DVD}/Owners Manuals/HP-41CX Owners Manual Vol 1 - OCR.pdf, paragraph 'Copying a Program from an Application Module (COPY)', p. 107 f (p 109 of the PDF), first footnote:
Application modules and peripheral devices contain both programs and functions. You can only copy programs, and not functions,
into the HP-41 program memory. Catalog 2 is a list of all functions and programs currently plugged in from external
sources, plus all time and extended memory functions (see "Cataloguing the New Functions" in appendix I). All these useraccessible
programs appear in catalog 2 preceded by a T. These are the only ones the user can view or copy.
Well, footnotes are also part of the manual to read. If you affirm HP did not document it, highly likely you did not look in the 'FM'. I know that 'RTFM' was a much too general instruction, so I added the hint where exactly (see COPY).

One more word. Since my student's days I had a lot of fun with "my" HP41 -- I hope you will do so too with yours. For this I repeat: have fun! (That's an order :mrgreen: )

M.
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby Garth » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:56 am

have a look for details about the 41's architecture in ZENROM users' manual. (Now I saw that some of the information is also given in the CCD manual.)

Both are excellent. I can speak from experience with the ZENROM manual, since I bought a ZENROM when EduCalc had them on sale (although now I have its image in my Clonix-D's flash). I just use the ZENROM for making synthetic instructions as easy as if they were not synthetic; but there's a lot more there than that. I never did get into the MCode stuff, and I feel I'll never need to now, thanks to Angel's great contributions. I understand the CCD manual (if I'm thinking of the right one) was absolutely a labor of love, 500 pages that they knew would not pay for itself financially. I have not looked through it even in digital form, only heard great things about it; but I should have a paper one coming soon. :D I have a hard time getting through any book; but besides the 41cx's and 71's manuals, I did get through Mier-Jędrzejowicz' excellent nearly 700-page "Extend Your HP-41." Super!
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby Jordan Orlando » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:01 am

mike-stgt wrote:
Jordan Orlando wrote:[...] the fact that CAT 2 didn't match the listings that I saw in the manuals.
{Warren's DVD}/Modules-ROMs/CCD Module/CCD Module Manual.pdf, Chapter 10, Function Index, p 10.03 ff (p. 340 of the PDF), here a screen shot of the table start:
p340.jpg
I assume all 41's ROM collectors would be very interested in differences to your rare gem. So please let us know.
I'm new to all this, [...] I've been extremely polite [...] I don't understand why you're responding with this condescending, snotty, put-upon attitude just because I made a couple of misinterpretations.
Don't be sissy. Because you are new to the subject you have a lot of questions, that's normal. Most here are several decades ahed of you and investigated many hours in this marvellous HP41 to grasp all its aspects. No cause to feel humbled by short and precise answers. Your novice duty is to catch-up, take your time.

You regard yourself as extremely polite, wouldn't it be even more polite to follow my hints and investigate some time to read a bit? One of my first hint was to have a look for details about the 41's architecture in ZENROM users' manual. (Now I saw that some of the information is also given in the CCD manual.) In addition, could you please restrain from guesswork or 'misinterpretations' how you call it. Assume nothing, make sure. A complex digital system tends to look chaotic but it's a deterministic chaos, every state has its reason, sometimes hard to find.
In fact, [...] — you told me to "RTFM" [...] since HP doesn't document it — it's not in the "FM" — and you have to get pretty far into the weeds here before encountering it).
{Warren's DVD}/Owners Manuals/HP-41CX Owners Manual Vol 1 - OCR.pdf, paragraph 'Copying a Program from an Application Module (COPY)', p. 107 f (p 109 of the PDF), first footnote:
Application modules and peripheral devices contain both programs and functions. You can only copy programs, and not functions,
into the HP-41 program memory. Catalog 2 is a list of all functions and programs currently plugged in from external
sources, plus all time and extended memory functions (see "Cataloguing the New Functions" in appendix I). All these useraccessible
programs appear in catalog 2 preceded by a T. These are the only ones the user can view or copy.
Well, footnotes are also part of the manual to read. If you affirm HP did not document it, highly likely you did not look in the 'FM'. I know that 'RTFM' was a much too general instruction, so I added the hint where exactly (see COPY).

One more word. Since my student's days I had a lot of fun with "my" HP41 -- I hope you will do so too with yours. For this I repeat: have fun! (That's an order :mrgreen: )

M.


I apologize for not being clear — my original post (the one you said was "tl;dr") tried to explain that, beyond simply understanding copying programs into user memory (yes, an easy function to find in the manual if you know what it's called, which is what I was asking) was subordinate to the other question, about the difference between the 41C's intrinsic functions that are called by "XEQ" and the user's or HP's programs that are called the same way. I wrote

So — unless I'm misunderstanding something — the 41C doesn't distinguish, functionally, between built-in "functions" and module-based programs. Whether they're some internal microcode-based routine (like SIN or LOG) or a series of CORDIS-based steps and logic, from the user perspective it's all the same: just "XEQ" and provide the name of the function/program.


It was too long and you didn't read it, as you said, but Garth took the time to explain that yes, I was onto something — there is indeed a lower level of coding in the 41c ("some internal microcode-based routine") and it's called MCode, which is not in the "FM" as I'm saying. So while you took all that space to scold me for not RTFM, Garth took a similar amount of time and space to simply tell me about MCode, which both confirmed my guess and answered my underlying question perfectly.

Missing the annotated list of functions deep within the CCD manual — a .pdf based on page images that isn't word-searchable (although yes, it has a table of contents) along with my having (I think quite reasonably) taken "CCD A" to mean "CCD Advanced" (an existing subsequent product, and a reference within a tiny alphanumeric display which routinely uses severe abbreviations) rather than "CCD Revision A" (mentioned nowhere conspicuous in those manuals including descriptions of the CAT ' 2 functions) is a reasonable mistake. Explaining it, without scorn, was very easy for you — but rather than simply setting me straight, correcting my guess, your priority was scolding me for not somehow mustering the clairvoyance necessary to know what that "A" stood for, which was unnecessary and laborious.

I'm not going to argue any more about these tonal issues — obviously you're not remotely contrite and you're not going to change your manner — but I'm just pointing out that 1) my mistakes were reasonable given the arcane subject matter and the complexity and obscurity of the documentation and 2) it was very easy and much more efficient for Garth, rprosperi and others to simply answer the questions rather than expending the additional energy and time to be insulting. It's faster and more efficient just to discern what I was looking for (which you didn't do) and then provide it succinctly (which you didn't do), but if you'd rather not be bothered — if the time it takes is so valuable to you — then don't respond.

Thanks for (eventually) leading me to the correct spots in the manual and for (eventually) answering my questions, and, yes, as I've said, I agree that this is amazing, remarkably innovative technology, advanced for its time and filled with clever solutions both from HP and from the "homebrew" community that came together afterwards and has kept the idea alive so vibrantly. I will, indeed, have fun. :)
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby Garth » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:40 am

Jordan Orlando wrote:("some internal microcode-based routine") and it's called MCode

"MCode," BTW, stands for "machine code," ie, machine language. Microcode is at an even lower level, and is not normally visible from the outside of the processor. Not all processors use microcode. I've already said almost more than I know; so if you're interested in looking into it further, the Wikipedia article might be a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode .

Missing the annotated list of functions deep within the CCD manual — a .pdf based on page images that isn't word-searchable

I haven't looked at it yet myself; but is it just scans? Can you OCR it? (I've never tried doing that, so I don't know what's involved.)

I agree that this is amazing, remarkably innovative technology, advanced for its time and filled with clever solutions both from HP and from the "homebrew" community that came together afterwards and has kept the idea alive so vibrantly. I will, indeed, have fun. :)

HP initially expected a product life of five years. Five years later, it was still expected for five more years, thanks in part to the users figuring out secrets about the internal design and how to come up with synthetic instructions (thanks to Bill Wickes) and then how to even program it in MCode (thanks to Jim De Arras). It was a monumental thing to have accomplished, since HP resisted. HP did finally release the annotated operating-system listings, with no warranty, and marked them "NOMAS," for "NOt MAnufacturer-Supported," basically saying, "Ok! Ok! Here it is! But don't ask for any help!" They did enjoy the extra sales and product excitement it produced though. The 41 was finally discontinued in 1990, 11 years after introduction, and I think it would have gone longer than that if third parties' 21st-century advances had come by 1990. The 71 was more powerful but not as practical as a calculator IMO (I have two) and its product life was considerably shorter. There really has been no replacement for the 41 IMO. Even the wonderful DM41X lacks HP-IL, and HP-IL was the whole reason I got into the 41 in 1986.
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Re: New "Quad Module" is actually a "CCD A" — I've got quest

Postby rprosperi » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:12 pm

Jordan Orlando wrote:
I haven't yet found the spot in the manual which lists the functions that CAT ' 2 brings up (again, ARR FNS, HEX FNS, I/O FNS, ADV FNS, X F/M FNS) but I'll keep looking.


You may have already sorted this out already, but I'll explain in case...

The list of items shown in the 41C CAT-2 are the actual functions within the modules inserted in the 41C. The 41CX changed CAT-2 to instead show only the ROM headers for each (so if 3 ROMs installed, only 3 items shown) due to the huge number of functions to step through. You can press [R/S] to stop the automatic listing, and use [SST] / [BST] to step through the list or ROM headers. If you press [Enter] while showing a given ROM header, it will then show you the list of all the individual functions within that ROM. So there are 2 levels of listing, first is the list of ROMs, and 2nd is the list or fucntions in that ROM. as you step through.

The CAT ' 2 function in the CCD module changes the behavior of your 41C to act like the 41CX, and shows the 2 levels. So, the "ARR FNS, ADV FNS", etc are actually ROM headers for groups of related functions; press [Enter] on each of these and you will then see the individual functions within that section, and these functions will indeed match the functions listed in the CCD manual.

HTH
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